Wednesday, November 10, 2010

Debate with Richard baily

As a follow up to my last article on Pensioners I have had a major debate with Dr Richard Bailey on Facebook I have copied it below

Richard Bailey Oh dear!

Monday at 20:54 · LikeUnlikeMartin Clarke I sense sarcasm?

Monday at 23:10 · LikeUnlikeRichard Bailey Words fail me!

Monday at 23:17 · LikeUnlikeMartin Clarke Or are frightened to voice your true feelings?

23 hours ago · LikeUnlikeRichard Bailey I suppose it is PC nonsense to point out that the figures you reproduce are false (they refer to two entirely different groups), and the conclusion you draw is morally objectionable.

Apart from that, I have no problem!

22 hours ago · LikeUnlikeMartin Clarke If that is the case give us all the correct figures and condem the circular. Is it morally wrong to put the interest of British Tax paying Pensioners before people who enter this country illegally and are therefore criminals?

22 hours ago · LikeUnlikeRichard Bailey As soon as you mix together genuine refugees with illegal immigrants, you are being either confused or dishonest, Martin.

My problem with the figures is that they are wrong precisely because they conflate two separate groups.

I agree that pe...nsioners deserve a lot more.

I agree that illegal immigrants should be detained and if necessary sent back.

But I also believe that it is simply incorrect to imply (as you do) that refugees are the same group as illegal immigrants.

And it is morally wrong to use the situation of refugees to promote some unconnected social and / or racial agenda.

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21 hours ago via · LikeUnlikeMartin Clarke Why is it being dishonest if the two groups get the same ammount? or if they don't supply the evidence all well and good saying the figures are wrong but you have to prove it Plus in my opiniom a refugee is an illegal immigrant and should b...e treated as such until our Government decide their status

Of course it racial If you are British you are in the country legally had you not noticed its Johny Foreigner who are illegal immigrants. What social agenda is their?

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19 hours ago · LikeUnlikeRichard Bailey You aren't following my point. Martin. The two groups are different: one is legal, and pays taxes; the others aren't and don't.

There is no point talking about 'figures' unless we are clear what is being discussed.

But if you do want some f...igures, see Sue Skipper's recent post:

Immigration: The facts we are never told

* There are between 310,000 and 570,000 illegal immigrants in the UK, according to Home Office estimates

* If allowed to live legally, they would pay more than £1bn in tax each year

* Deporting them would cost £4.7bn and leave acute shortages of cleaners, care workers and hotel staff cIf allowed to stay, the net benefit of nearly £6bn would pay for 300 new schools, 12 district hospitals or 200,000 new nurses

* Nearly 50% of foreign-born immigrants leave Britain within five years

* Migrants fill 90% of low-paid jobs in London and account for 29% of the capital's workforce. London is the UK's fastest-growing region

* Legal migrants comprise 8.7% of the population, but contribute 10.2% of all taxes. Each immigrant pays an average of £7,203 in tax, compared with £6,861 for non-migrant workers

* There were 25,715 people claiming asylum last year. If allowed to work, they would generate £123m for the Treasury

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13 hours ago · LikeUnlikeMartin Clarke I will check out the stats before I comment

If all these immigrants left our own indiginous population would get work at reasonable rates instead of having 3 million unemployed who claim unemployment benefit and do not pay taxes all your im...migrant labour is doing is paying for British to be on the dole which no doubt some enjoy

There would no longer be bed shortage and school class sizes would go down and we would not need 300 new hospitals

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12 hours ago · LikeUnlikeRichard Bailey Which indigenous population? You're German. I'm Irish. We are a nation of mongrels! As far as I can tell, each influx of 'immigrants' has brought something new to the country. And long may it it continue!!

12 hours ago via · LikeUnlikeMartin Clarke You are quite aware of what I meant by indigenous as reagard top my myself I have English, Germanm and Irsih in me but I am mainly from the Angla saxon tribe mother came from Westphalia. Yes immigrants in the past have made a big contributio...n to England and they positive part of our history in a time when we needed them. That is not the case now we have millions of British Subjects unemployed which have created a non working under class and please do not quote how much better foreign workers are and how hard they work most under cut our workforce a great deal work for 6 months and return home as you said so do not pay tax and then return 6 months later. Some have created gheto's in our inner cities not speaking our lanquage or understanding iour history or culture. England is having to biuld more houses and hospitals, schools to accomadate this influx and please do not tell me they are paying their way because not all of them work, plus a big number work in the balck economy.

You want get out more and meet real people who are struggling to bring up families some from your days in Karate then maybe you will understand what is happening
Richard Bailey Martin, it's a shame you're returning to the ploy of explaining away people who disagree with you as being due to them not talking to enough / the right type of people.

It's also dodgy, as I'm willing to bet my man parts that I meet more pe...ople and from a wider range of social groups than you every year!

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7 minutes ago via · LikeUnlikeMartin Clarke What a reply ofcourse I am expalining away people who disagree with me would not be much of a debate if I did not.

I expect you may meet people from different social classes you are a much travelled man and of of course once again I stay in ...Sittingbourne and have never travelled or met people out of my small group therefore I must bbe inferior to you or maybe you do not know who I meet and associate with but I bet my man parts I have more connection with the working man and his problems then you

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